[0:00] NY State and AdirondacksHello, the the guest today is Betsy Lowe. She is Masters of Resource Planning, Class of 1980. She's is the founder of the Wild Center, which is the Natural History Museum of the Adirondack area of New York. And then she also spent a career in the Department of Environmental Conservation for New York State. So hi. Hi, Betsy. Why is the environment important? Well, it's important because we need a a, a natural landscape to live in and survive and breathe what not, and we need to keep our ecosystems going. What is special about the New York State environment? Well, New York's incredible because we have a Adirondack Park and a Catskill Park where we're where the lands are conserved and the Adirondacks is a 6,000,000 acre park with state lands and private lands, but overall controls under the Adirondack Park Agency land use and development plan. And and then the the state lands are managed by the Department of Environmental Conservation, but we it's a 6,000,000 acre park and a large portion of it is Allstate and developable land and beautiful place. Oh wow. What does it look like? Are there mountains and rivers? Yeah, we've got a lot of high peaks and that's six thousands of miles of streams and rivers. Yeah, I did. I did my master's thesis for Cornell on should there be a federal role in management of the Adirondack Park? And I went through and reviewed the whole history of the Adirondack Park and, and, and the role that was being done by the park agency in New York State Environmental Conservation at the time. And I felt like that was a really good model and we didn't need to bring in federal control of the lands at that point. Oh interesting, When a government manages the land, what does it do? Do they like put Park Rangers in there? Like, oh, what does it mean to manage a land? Well, the, the government's involved because a good large portion of it is state land. So that the state land, there's unit management plans for all the different pieces of Yaduronic Park where there's a plan of where the trails are and parking and visitor centers or whatever. But it's all carefully planned and managed by New York State, not developed like the private land. But they're also every community has its own local land use and development plan too that goes through a whole public participation process. And yeah, it's sort of a unique model for management of lands in the in the States. So when you were working in the New York State government, like, what's it was this example of like a success story from a year's worth of work? Oh, well, there's lots of departments within the Environmental Conservation department, everything from water quality to air quality to Lansing forest to inactive hazardous waste site. So there's lots of different programs that require lots of different expertise. And I worked in a number of them. I was in air quality at one point. I was in mind land reclamation programs and then went to the region and then I, I joined up with the natural resource management programs and then public participation. So there's, you know, lots of different pieces of Environmental Conservation. Oh, wow. And then and then we were building lots of consensus on really controversial issues on land acquisition and stuff that we all just work together and had lots of meetings and, and listened to all sides. And over time, we all came to consensus on what land should be additional land should be purchased by the state and which should be saved for the communities. And all that goodwill that came out of all those conversations back in the day I think led to my idea for the Wild Center, because there was an environmental side, educational side and economic development side to it, which brought everybody together. And then I picked Tupper Lake because I didn't think it would work in Lake Placid, the Olympic Village or Saranac. Lake served the artist community, and Tupper Lake was craving economic development. There is a controversial prison project in the works back then that was very controversial. But when I had the idea for the Wild Center, everybody was like, yeah, let's do that because there is the economic development side, educational side, and environmental side. And so I just started holding public meetings and we brought people together from all backgrounds. I went to all the different townships and, and we got, I don't know, over 100 resolutions in support of the Wild Center from all different group groups and organizations and communities. And all of that led to incredible fundraising. We raised over $30 million to build the Wild Center and do all the master planning. And anyway, there's a whole story to it. But Adirondacks is a special place from lots of standpoints. You so you met a lot of the stakeholders through the government work and then when you started the wild center, you also need to meet up with a lot of stakeholders too. Right, right. Yes, I've had a lot of, you know, growing up, coming here on vacation all the time and then moving here and thinking I'll be here for a couple years. And now I'm spent more than half my life here, I think. And now I got to stay and keep an eye on. But it's a, it's a wonderful place. But it was amazing how my career with Cornell and Graduate School kind of led to each was one of my steps towards where I am now. And I've still got the book. Thesis. Yeah, the, the thesis was about should there be a federal role in management of the Adirondack part. I didn't, you know, I didn't. I think we came to the, I came to the conclusion that we're different. We don't need to be a federal part. The state part is working and special in its own way. Is the benefit for like federal that federal funding would come in, whereas if it's state only state funding will come in? Is there a difference in that funding? Structure, I think, no, I think it was more about the management of the park. You know, federal parks are all completely public lands with federal ownership, whereas the Adirondacks is different. It's a huge park. It's larger than five of the national parks combined, but there's a mix of public and private lands. But it is very much of A wilderness area overall. But, you know, communities throughout the park. So it takes a special kind of management. And the whole park is all within New York State, so it doesn't cross state borders. Right. Yeah, the Adirondacks is all upstate New York, but it's all within the Adirondack ship. Interesting. Yeah, that's pretty rare to see like private ownership of a park because usually like Yellowstone, I don't think people own parts of Yellowstone, right? Right now that's all National Park. Yeah. So a good portion of the Adirond next way. Forget the total, you know, well over half of the park is is public land, but there's, you know, communities scattered around. But but. Public and private like differentiates of like, is it just like a stroll in the neighborhood and then suddenly you hit like public park land? They're largely major chunks, like the, you know, the villages and whatnot are largely all private land, and then the townships have some public land mixed in and like in the counties, but the state lands are largely large swaths around the park. Yeah, it is a benefit that you can support a lot more local businesses because you have a stationary group of people who live there, rather than just expecting tourists to drive through and buy something. Yeah, there is a good balance with the communities and the villages and the largely, you know, centralized development around the communities and then the state open space lands. It's a big chunk of it. But yeah, that's incredible. Beautiful place to live. And in the small towns, but each town is unique in its own way, too. Yeah, but look, class it was the Olympic Village back in the day and but small town it still has, you know, some major sporting events and what not. And then yes, Saranac Lake serve the artist community, lots going on with the arts. Chipper Lake now is the wild Center community. But also they do have, you know, Sun Mountain, some other large facilities there that make up for part of the community. But the Wild Center is a big piece of it. All the towns have their own, you know, unique villages too, and businesses and down, you know, downtown pieces to them too. But lots of trails. We have more but thousands of miles of rivers and streams and lakes and, you know, lots of water. Is the economics, is it mostly mostly tourism based or like? I'd say it's largely tourism based, but lots of small businesses. But now with the Internet, yeah, I think a lot of people that used to be seasonal people can live here year round and work online too. So things I think are, I mean, I'm not an expert at that, but I think things are gradually changing everywhere. But the Adirionics is a special place. It gets cold in the winter and got to do a lot of snow plowing and stuff like that. But and if you have a property way back in the woods, you know you got to have a special way to take care of it and have access to if you want to be there year round. Yeah, because some of the roads might not get to a property. Yeah, well, if it's private land, you got to plow your own Rd. If it's a long driveway, what not, or if it's more, more rural, you know, they do get plowed. But it it's, you know, if it's a big storm, it could take a little bit. Yeah. So you've been coming there for, like, your whole life. Like, how has it changed over the decades? Like is there a lot more development now? Well, my great grandfather owned land over in Long Lake and built a hotel. Had it, Yeah, hotel and cottages and golf course and whatnot. And when he died, my grandfather inherited it and then he sold it to another family who kept the cottages going. And now it's all own, individually, privately, all the different things. And then we have our own property over there. But that was our original thing that brought us to the Adirondacks. And I've come here my whole life. We moved around the country because my dad worked for General Electric, but we always came to the Adirondacks in the summer and overtime. We bought back one of the cottages. And then I moved here. I took, you know, I started out in Albany with New York State and I took a job in the regional office just to see what it was like working in the region. Been here ever since. He was just, I'd love the community connection with, you know, being in the regional office and, and then of course, I started the Wild Center. So I had to keep. I worked there for a number of years getting it all up and running. And what's the target customer base and how do they usually schedule their trips? Yeah. Well, I'm not an expert at that, but there's so many opportunities between, you know, incredible villages and resorts and, you know, thousands of miles of trails and, you know, 40 high peaks and, you know, so there is a lot of outdoor opportunities for people and I'm sure everybody has their own way. You know. And you know, and then there's the second home people too that would come and just stay at their cabins for a few weeks and then that's it for the year. But the the and then, you know, the village is largely are have year round people in them, but also seasonal too. We've got some beautiful homes around here in Lake Placid that you know, probably aren't occupied all the time that are seasonal to a certain extent. So when you were building the wild centre, did you mostly chat with like the people who were like the second homeowners? Would you also chat with the people who lived there permanently? What was the conversations like? Well, well, I, I went to every single community, every single town hall, gave talks there. There's a lot of organizations, you know, summer organizations formed around, you know, different houses, community centers, and everybody wanted to hear and lots of not-for-profit organizations. When I started, when I had this idea for the Wild Center, you know, we were in the paper lot people reading about it and asking me to come speak all over the Adirondacks to all different groups and organizations and local governments and everything you say. I think it was very well received. What was the? Timeline Like when did you start and how long does it take?

[13:00] Starting the Wild CenterThe idea was born August of 98 and we are up and running by 2006. When I had the idea I formed the board and did all the legal work and just started holding public. Well, I initially just started holding public meetings and then formed the board and then, you know, got us all incorporated and then raising $30 million took a few years, much less building. It took a couple years, but it was pretty much the speed of light from the idea of being born in 98 and being all up and running a 40,000 square foot museum by 2006 was pretty, pretty awesome. But there was a huge, you know, collection of people between the community, seasonal people and others all around the park that really like the idea. And yeah, I think almost every group and organization, major group and organization around the park did a resolution of support. But what were the main like checkpoints that you have to meet in order to build a museum like that? Well, there's, there's the public. Well, not every project requires all this public support like we got because we needed off our fundraising. I mean, I think the Adirondack Museum, which is a beloved museum in Blue Mountain Lake, was largely built all by one family that put all the money into building it. Whereas Tipper Lake, I wasn't in a position to do that. But it was beloved. You know, bringing everybody into it and getting a broad base of support was really beloved. Gotcha. So, so then everybody would ship in the little, some would ship in the little, some would ship in the lot, and then they build up a big base. And it gave, yeah, everybody ownership. And I think that all that support was wonderful and it kept spreading and helped us get that building built. But we also worked with lots of Not for Profits and others to, you know, collaborate and make sure we're complimentary to all the other groups and organizations around the park. Gotcha, that makes sense. Did did you like like how does the vision change from the 98 when you first came up with it? And over time did you have to change the vision a little to to have more consensus between groups? I think we pretty much build exactly what the original plan was, 40,000 square foot museum with combination of a panoramic theater, aquariums, you know, interactive exhibits. I think it it all came together just the way our original fact sheet talked about. But over time it has expanded. We've added property to the Wild Center, but it's continued to be very much supported and the visitation is really good and new staff over time bringing fresh ideas and whatnot. And yes, and I don't rent it at this point. They say once you start something you got to let the baby go And, and I got a really incredible offer to come back to New York State as the regional director at the time. And I was honored to do that and work with credible staff with New York State, but also take on special initiatives with the state as well. I'm still involved in non committees and go to every board meeting and all that kind of stuff, just not there with the day-to-day operations. I see a lot of Cornell is these certain nonprofits and these all start very small. They slowly grow to 10,000, then 100,000 and they are able to hire some staff and they grow to 200,000. They hire a little bit more staff and then it just slowly grows. Whereas you started off with like a big jump from zero to 30 million. Like were you able to show like, is that because you had a track record coming in? How were you able to jump so much? Well be yeah, our original plan was for a 40,000 square foot museum and you know, with all the public meetings I was holding and all the support we were getting from all the different diverse groups and organizations. And then we got political support and interest as well and lots of press coverage. You know when they we're involved it may just touch the idea and you look good. But yeah, Governor Pataki at the time just word of and Schumer member Hillary Clinton coming to visit way back in the day. You know, all the different politicians would stop in and show their support. So you're able to jump to the larger scale because you involved a lot more of like the bigger players as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everybody from the locals who are extremely important hosting the museum in their community, you know, right up to the politicians and then and then some of the well to do people when they saw how much it would mean to so many people then would ship in the bigger bucks as we moved along.

[17:44] Building grassroots and political supportThat's so interesting. So for like the so so for the local community held like town halls, did you like go to PTA meetings? Like, how did you grow up the grassroots? Base, I was doing press releases all the time about our progress and then, you know, we do a press release that we're holding a public meeting. We put in all the local papers and whatnot. And I was somewhere into the Times Union and Schenectady Gazette as well, the Albany papers and but yeah, and then over time we did more and more online stuff too. That was a new thing back then. Yes, that was 98 so. Internet public meetings, you know, right? Salt of the Earth was really valuable. Gotcha. Like what metric did you track when you were trying to do these meetings? Were you trying to reach 60% of all the local community? Like what metric did you optimize for when you were growing? To engage the public and then they'd be supportive, you know, as as they get their fingers in the pie, you know, really learn about it first hand and can weigh in too. We took comments and suggestions and let people, but I think it was really valuable and from a fundraising standpoint to keep the public closely involved. That makes sense. And then how about the like once, once you have the grassroots you want, the more like state level support like did you go to Albany? Just talk, talk to our region, you know, legislators that represented the region and then they took it from there. But, you know, the state and federal reps from here. No, I didn't go talk to the Legislature. I think that, oh, I guess over time, I think I was invited to some event they had in Albany with a lot of people from around the state. They were doing special things or whatever, but largely when we were building the Wild Center. No, I didn't go. You know, I worked with our regional representatives directly and then they took it from there. Got you. And was the output like like a bill that that they passed in the Assembly in this Senate to fund the wild center? Yeah, they'd include it in the state budget type thing. I think largely what? Was the process like? Like for that where they take it out of special funds that were already allocated like the wages for education or environmental whatever. And then they or community development. I think a lot of it was, that's right development funds that we got for the Wild center, but the our representatives help to that all work. Gotcha, that makes sense. So they already have like a allocation for education. So from that pile you could get money from. Yeah, they had, yeah, they had to select the projects that would get it. We're on the top of the list for a bunch of the funding. But boy, so now trying to start a hotel is a whole different thing from starting a not-for-profit educational business. Starting a business is a whole different thing. It's, it's a whole different type of fundraising. The state doesn't just give you money for a hotel. You want a bill. It's different when they support a not-for-profit or educational facility. But there is certain amount of economic development funds out there that we've, yeah, that we've attracted. We still have a ways to go. It's really interesting. So so you had the first one that you finished in 2006, which was the 40,000 square feet one. Like how did you grow it over time? Well, we have added some facilities and outdoor picnic tent area and we've added trails. We've added land. Of course, the exhibits have evolved a little bit, but you have to keep, you know, doing that, providing, you know, some fresh programming and activities to keep people coming. I guess back in the day, we also had a major climate summit conference at the Wild Center in the early days, and that led to the youth climate summit where young people put together their own summit at the Wild Center. And then that's grown over time and has provided an example for other youth climate summits all around the globe, actually the US and around the world. And the staff have done a wonderful job with that and supporting the youth and doing those summits and learning that nature directly themselves. This is like a global summit, so it reaches youth from all around. The world, just different countries and different places around the world, and the youth have set up their own climate summits as well. That was all started from the model that they did at the Wild Center that grew out of the original climate summit we had at the Wild Center. Yeah. But it's amazing all the stuff you can do with education and outreach and engaging the public and and helping people learn and grow and want to learn more. Yeah, so I'm trying to picture this like, imagine like a youth walks into the wild center. What does the What does the youth see around them, and what do they learn? Well, you come in the front door

[22:42] Wild Center experienceand it's a Great Hall. It's just been an incredible space for gatherings and special events. And there's big windows that look out to nature in the pond right up against the building. And I think it has an inspiring feel to it. And then the offices are off to well, there's a cafeteria and a store, a wild supply store, and then offices to the left. And then off to the right are all the indoor exhibits and aquariums. And you know that have evolved over time, but and then you go out the doors and then there's trails around the property too. Super. And the when, when, when the visitor walks through the Great Hall and goes to the trails. Like what's our examples of things that they would learn? Well, just about nature, you know, they see there's, there's signage too, as you walk around the trails and then it goes down to a river area, which is sweet with, you know, you can go paddle out onto the river as well. But it's just another way of connecting you to nature and appreciating it and whatnot. So yes, it's incredible. It's really grown and evolved over time. Diaz and new people involved in Fresh Perspectives. So after the initial fundraising, do you have to continue to do fundraising for the non profit or is it more self-sustaining over time? Well, it's a combination of things. As you it evolves, you have have a endowment where it's funds that you can't spend but just use the interest. So we are growing the endowment which is a valuable thing for the long term. You know, if you have a tough year where for some reason there aren't as many visitors for whatever reason, or if you want to do new special initiatives, having the funds from endowment is very helpful from many perspectives. So a combination of membership, endowment, and then grants that we get occasionally for special projects to state or federal or other organizations. Yeah, lots, lots of pieces to the puzzle. What's an example of like a special project you would do? Well, they did. They built a a trail through the trees that they called the Wild Walk, which was in addition to the Wild Center, which you go on a platform that gradually as the slope goes down, the platform stays level and you're in the trees and you get a whole different view and perspective of nature. So that was a big addition to the Wild Center. Over time, programming an area was added for outdoor receptions and events and whatnot, a tented area, and there's other things that may come down the road. Gotcha. Yep, so. That's about it. So so how does the like like Adirondacks, like the whole region change because of the wild center? Well, I. You know, it's a piece of the, it's a piece of the whole region. I, I don't think it, it's taking over the region by any means. There's another venue for visitors to visit and gain some appreciation about the Adirondacks and connect with nature in special ways and hopefully lead to continued care of the natural resources we have in the world. But to appreciate the natural, keep appreciating the natural resources. Do you see people driving more through Tupper Lake now because of the wild center? Well, I'm not an expert at that, but I'm, I'm sure it has a certain amount of impact because we do get a large number of people that come there every year that to visit the Wild Center. And they're not all locals are coming from all around the park. So yeah, that would definitely draw a certain crowd. Yeah. Every community is special in its own way. You know, like, plus it's the Olympic Village and of course the sporting complex here. I guess I mentioned before Sarah Neck Lake's the beloved artist community and every community in the Adirondacks has its special features. And I guess the wild Centers added a lot to Tuber Lake. That makes sense. And then on the like, on the fundraising side, I see a lot of like nonprofits and fundraising is usually like the bottleneck they face. They, they, it's a very hard to fundraise, fundraise all the time. Did you, how did you get good at fundraising? And then like, was it because you built up that initial grassroots initially and it was much easier to fundraise because you had their initial support?

[27:12] How to get good at fundraisingWell, fundraising from when we started to where we are now is a little bit different. You know, back then we didn't have a giant membership and you know, we're a brand new organization and we're looking for lots of capital funding to build the wild center. Now the funding comes from operations, from visitors, from, you know, we still get grants, but a big part of it, you know, is, is related to the visitorship and what not to. And so it yes, it's evolved. We, you know, we've got a big following, got, you know, all the supporters from the early days. And as the Wild Center does new things, keeps the interest there and as new interest, I guess, yeah. So, so like on the like when you're initially fundraising, like what was the day-to-day like? Did you do a lot of phone calls and have like follow up meetings with like in person meetings, like? I knew a lot about writing press releases and stuff back in the day. So I send out a brief press release that would mention that we're going to hold a public meeting about this wild center idea in Tempura Lake. And, and then lots of groups and organizations would invite me to speak there because I want to hear more about it and weigh in. So it was, it was a whole bunch of, and then of course, engaging the politicians. And when the politicians would come visit and want to learn more about it, that helped draw attention to. So there's lots of and then people would do lots of receptions and parties to invite people to come and hear about it and build connections to did you? Start doing things like $100 a plate and then you have a little reception and then that way you're able to raise 10,000 in the evening. You know, they weren't usually the kind of thing you pay for. It would be usually, you know, people's individual homes where they invite all their friends and neighbors and quite not. And then but, and they'd learn about it and people would get excited and then they, you know, send in money or whatever. If we did a large appeal back in the day where we sent a letter to everybody in the seven townships around Tuber Lake about the wild Center and inviting people to donate. And that first fundraiser gave us a big chunk of money that helped us get our master planning underway. So there was yeah, but I can't, my head's spinning. But that was really valuable to engage the people in the communities right around Tupper initially. Really interesting. So you have like a mail in the mail to get the form. They also see in the newspapers as well because you were pressed releases back to all the newspapers and they published about it. Yeah. And we put in a year into it or so, we opened a local office in Tupper Lake, right on Main Street. It was a small building that was vacant that we put in an office and some exhibits about the wild center idea so that the public there was some first hand information out there for people that wanted to learn more about it. Interesting. That was, yeah, a couple years into the wild center as we're moving along. Yeah. And then once we. Had I guess we had an exhibit in the windows on the Main Street too, that you could just see from the sidewalk. Gotcha. And then that dad just built even more awareness about the wild center over time. Yeah, yeah. Gotcha, gotcha. So like the the typical resident of Tupper, like might have heard about it like 10 times over the course of a year by the time they were. They'd see it in the paper. They'd see it on Main Street, or they may have been at one of the you know, gathering Rotary Club or one of the, you know, groups or organizations where we were speaking. How did you keep the message fresh overtime? Like after like 3 years from 1998 to 2001 of fundraising the message like did you change the message overtime? Well. That's you. The big issue was hearing about how it's progressing and moving along. That was, you know, and we pretty much built exactly what was what the original idea was. So the idea didn't change is so much as things are moving along or when the politicians were come, you know, that would draw some attention or other supporters that we had overtime. Sigourney Weaver was adorable. She she was supportive and she did the voice over for our movie in the theater at the Weil Center. And I think she did. Maybe her voice was in some other marketing stuff I forget. Oh wow, you know that helps build a little bit more excitement as well. Yeah, the politicians and and all the local friendships. How did you organize the? How did you organize like each event? Yeah, we did have base of music display panels about the Wild Center so that we would bring to receptions and whatnot. No, we didn't have the hands, you know, they were receptions and a speaker and cocktails or bever, you know, beverages and food, food and beverages or something, you know, And they're usually in the evening, I guess if there was a reception, and usually it's someone's home, so. It's usually like 10 to 50 people, something of that range. Yeah, yeah, a few dozen people that were, that were at all different people's homes or camps, and they would weigh in on who was invited. Obviously, if they're hosting the reception, then they invite a lot of their special friends to come and then hear about the Wild Center. And then of course, and then we bring in some of our board members and give a speech or, you know, know, some of the other board members that lived around the state and whatnot, their friends heard about it too. And they would do receptions with their own friends to tell them about the Wild Center too, I think. But a big chunk of it was, you know, around the region here. But actually I was travelling all over and one of our board members wanted a reception down in Westchester, whatever I drive down and part of it travelling all over the place. But yeah, it's great. Did you try to scale up the development side like by hiring director of development? Or did you have to go to each one yourself because you were the founder? Well, over time we were able to

[33:13] Building the initial teamadd staff and one of our first staff people we added was a development director because we had to and and also admin people because we had to. You had to keep track of all the interest and people that support it and build our database and all that was some of our our first hires were development and admin. So this was before it was built, so it was before it. Yeah, before it was built and finance, you know, so we we're putting lots of money in the bank. We needed someone to keep track of how it was managed and invested and expended or as need be, yeah. Once it's built, then you're able to rely more and more on ticket sales over time, and it's easier to tell the story when people can actually visit and see it. Yeah, yeah, it's a well, yeah, like I said before, fundraising or the support for a not for profits combination of membership, visitors and grants and special, you know, special gifts. Like when somebody signs up to be a member like what benefits does membership gifts? Does it give them like discount on a ticket? Yeah, that's a big part of it. And then they also become, you know, get regular mailings or, you know, emails or whatever as if they provide that information. But the big thing is membership. The big thing is your discount on visits and and it supports the Wild Center and it's ongoing operations. Well, once it's built, how do you get visitors to know about it? Like if somebody out in Tokyo and Japan, how do they learn about the wild center? Like, well, how did you get the word? Opened, we'd raised, you know, as I mentioned, over $30 million from over 6000 donors. So the word was out. The word was out. You know, people that were supportive and had given a course are watching it and we were in the paper all the time and we were on special, you know, news stories or NPRI think some work. You know, as the word got out and as the project was growing and they could see it was definitely coming together. We got a lot of publicity that way. And then all the members were in a mailing list, so they get all information too. And they would tell their friends about the Wild Center, and then they would visit as

[35:29] Graduating from Cornell and career pathwell the Masters of regional Planning at. So how did that teach you about the nonprofit work and the environmental work? Well. Not-for-profit came later, but as I was doing my, you know, master's thesis, it was so interesting, you know, to connect with the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation and go through all the files to collect information I needed for my thesis and whatnot and learn about government. Well, I guess I didn't really learn about government, but I was in the building and connected with a lot of staff and whatnot. And then all that led to my first job. They're like, wow, Betsy, you know, here all the time and doing all this research. We'd love to hire you. So I was honored. I wasn't even looking for a job yet. And they offered me a position in Albany and it sounded wonderful. It was, I guess I was in air quality initially. My first job, you know, all my jobs before that had been summer, you know, minimum wage jobs. But this first job, actually, it turned out the pay was, you know, it sounded great to me, but I didn't realize it was, you know, it was very much an entry level position. But I then it but it got my foot in the door and then I worked my way up. Normally to get a job with the state, you have to pass an, unless you're a political appointment, you have to take a civil service exam and score in the top, in the top and then they you get picked from there. This guy, I got my foot in the door. It was a very much entry level position, but got my foot in the door and then I worked my way up and took the exams and went overtime and got to see a lot of departments. So. This was in the 1980s. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was in air quality and I was in, yeah, offshore oil and gas leasing, going to New York City a lot, then mine land reclamation and and then in the region and then involved in land acquisition activities. And it was wild and then public participation, but saw a lot of the parts and pieces of Environmental Conservation was amazing. You were around 16 years into career by the time you started the wild center like. Actually, 19 1/2 years, you don't leave it when you work for government, you get your 20 years in that, you know, the wild center was hot then. So I had to keep going and I, I left New York State. But then once the museum was all up and running, I was invited back to be the regional director. So I got. 20 years. Over 20 years in that way, it all worked out for the best. So, so you like, what kind of skill sets did you build up in those 19 1/2 years that led to a successful wild center? Well, let's see. I think it, well, a lot of it was public outreach and what not, but I think it a lot of it too was just the fact that the idea of a while a Natural History Museum, given all that crazy Natural History events we had had at the time between the ice storm and the blow down and the forest fires and different things that I was involved in. I was doing some real basic exhibits and the public was really interested in in that and so I thought we should do more. And then that all evolved into starting a Natural History Museum. So through that you were able to understand what people are interested in and also how to reach them through the press releases. Well, I mean, it's stories to tell. Oh, my gosh, it's such a special region. Yeah, and. Then what's the press release skill set like? Are you able to? No. These editors at these newspapers would be interested in a story like this, so we should tell that story to them. Like what's the skill set like? No, no, I was just sharing the story of what I was trying to do start the wild center. But every press release though, has to have a message. And but my stories are all about the evolution of all the the idea of the wild center and then how that evolved over time and we actually built it. But the stories are all about the progress and activities and the different grants that we received over time was impressive and and then. Public. Meetings, lots of public meetings. So those are all covered by the press too. So did you like build up a mailing list of these are the reporters who are interested in this and just blasted them every time you. Yeah, yeah. Back then, I think we sent out press releases through the mail initially, you know, and then over time it was all, you know, electronic. Interesting. So you would send, you would mail each of the newspapers. Newspaper, radio, TV and then independent writers too. And they would send like a reporter to the event to cover it. No, I mean, they would. We would send out a press release about an event coming and then they decide if they want to be there or not, but they always would. But they would usually do a story that was mentioned, the public meeting coming up. That was the purpose of the press release. So the public knew we were doing public meetings to provide updates on the development of the Wild Center.

[40:32] Closing questionYeah, that makes sense. Super. So, So Betsy, for the closing question, I always ask, ask the guests, what's the kindest thing anyone's ever done for you? Well, I have to say there's, I don't know if I can name one thing. I think of my parents all the time and how wonderful they were in terms of, well, our travels, lots of travels and all they did for us to as we were growing up and then sending us to college and all that kind of stuff. And, and I'm very grateful for my children and my career. I'm very grateful for the career I've had over time. And living in the Adirondacks is special.