The Business of Broadway: Marc Hershberg ’14 is a Broadway producer, Forbes columnist, and entertainment industry expert

[0:00]Hello, the guest today is Mark Hirsberg, class of 2014. He is an expert on the entertainment industry. So, uh, hi Mark, what do you do in entertainment? Tony, thanks for having me. I am the director of Business and Legal affairs at a theatrical licensing company named Music Theater International. And in addition to that, I am a columnist at Forbes, where I've been writing for nearly ten years about the business of Broadway and I also produce and finance shows both on Broadway and. In the West End of London, where I may have one show that's going two shows actually that's currently on North North American tours right now. And then I'm also. Writing a book. About the business of Broadway as well. Super. So as you like figure out like the portfolio of things that you do, how'd you build up overtime? That's it. Everything is all sort of connected. Started writing about the business side of the industry when I was in law school. I started writing for Forbes then and that actually stemmed from my time at Cornell because I started studying the industry as a senior, actually sort of as a junior for my senior honors thesis. And that led to ultimately my position at Forbes. And then I started, once I graduated law school, I was already, I was practicing law in a different area. And through all the connections that I made through my column for Forbes, I ultimately decided to become an entertainment attorney and switch over into the space. And so that led to me working more in the in the theater side. And then ultimately I became a producer and that led to my current role at MTI. So one thing's led to another, but it actually started with my honors thesis at Cornell. And then writing the column for Forbes has really served as the launching pair for the rest of my opportunities and endeavors in the space. Forbes opened up more doors, which opened up more doors, and then it just kept. One thing led to another and here I am. As a student at Cornell, like you come into Cornell, you don't have a major, and then you pick

[2:02]a major and then you become a little bit more knowledge. But like, how did you build up your expertise in the area? Well, I think a little unique is that I was in ILR school at Cornell, so I actually chose my major even before I started. But I think so, I mean, one of the reasons why I decided to study Broadway for my honors thesis is because to graduate with honors, you need to do a thesis and it needs to be related to your major, which for me was ILR. So it was either really that or striking factory workers. And I realized that Broadway still is very heavily. Unionized. And a lot of my knowledge of the industry really came from reading as much as I could in books and news articles and watching some documentaries, but really just sort of digging into what happens behind the scenes. And as I mentioned, I've been writing that the column now for nearly ten years. So during law school, I think I was writing maybe four or five columns a month, and now it's about 1:00 to 2:00. But by sort of writing all these pieces and sort of studying different parts of the industry over the course of a decade, as well as interviewing people and really getting master classes from different industry leaders and professionals, I've really been able to understand the industry from different vantage points, which has made it very helpful to just really develop a deep understanding of how the industry operates. I talked to a lot of students at Cornell and a lot of them, they talk about the imposter syndrome where they feel like even though they studied it a lot, they still feel like they aren't an expert on it. Like how do you build up more confidence in yourself and deal with the imposter syndrome? Yeah. I mean, it's it's a real thing. I think ultimately though, you just got to jump in and do it. I think one of the things that's sort of unique is that as even though I've been writing for

[4:04]Force for almost 10 years now, I've never taken a journalism class. And I just, fortunately, my father, he was a journalist for many years and so I've learned a lot from him. But I think one of the best ways to really learn is just by experience and by doing things. And I think that a lot of people shouldn't really wait until they feel like they have like a certain credential or something. I think it's really important to just sort of get started and start doing things, and ultimately you will feel confident enough to continue. I mean, when I started writing, and certainly with my honors thesis, there's certain things I did not understand nearly as well as I do now. And I think time really works to your benefit. I think Malcolm Gladwell wrote in The Outliers about how people need a certain number of hours to become experts at something. And it's really just like the amount of time and effort that you put towards something. And I think the key is just not waiting. So I think if students want to. Get involved in something. I think it's really important just to sort of seek opportunities and just start doing it. And eventually that impostor syndrome will, or that feeling of being an impostor will fade away and they'll just start doing. It gotcha. As you start writing these articles for Forbes, was your goal to grow your readership overtime? And then how did that translate to the to the legal work and also the business side of things? Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, initially my goal was actually I was doing it for academic credit during in law school. But it was really just to find exciting and appealing topics to cover and really dig into them and try to advance the conversation. Because sadly, during my time writing, there have been a lot of cuts to arts and entertainment coverage at many publications. So there's really not many people covering the business side of the industry. So I think what I really tried to do is sort of fill that niche and really write about things

[6:04]that people aren't right talking about. And they could be legal, financial, sometimes like related to the real estate side of the industry. But I was just sort of writing stories that I wanted to read. And I think fortunately for me, I think one of my second or third stories was about a big scandalous lawsuit that happened, and that sort of put me on the map. I was cited in The New York Times, and that was very early when I had started writing. And I think fortunately, I just developed a large readership over that period. And that in turn just sort of like increased and I guess burnished my reputation and increased my profile and industry. And I think nowadays as a result of my column, people like recognize my name and they like, if I'm at an event and I'm introduced to someone, they'll be like, Oh yeah, I've, I know of you. So it's, I think it's really just increased my recognition and helped me network within the industry so. You're at law school at the time, so that's why you understood the lost side of the scandalous lost. I'm not sure how much I understood it at the time, but I think it gave me the maybe the credibility to cover it. And I think also just because in law school you're reading a lot of cases and everything, I was more familiar with some of the legal terminology that was in the cases and then able to really just understand it. And also realistically still, I still being a student when I started and I still sort of consider myself a student in some ways. I'm always continuously learning. But I think just being able to really explore and dig into these sort of subject matters in a way that other journalists who are pressed for time just aren't able to do. So I think that sort of made it better easier for me to sort of dig into these lawsuits initially. A lot of the law school students, they all want to write

[8:05]for the law review. They don't think to write for Forbes. So how'd you make the cross from when you're a law school to think I should write for Forbes? So I was working on another project for academic credit that sort of blew up and I needed to find something else to do to write for credit. And I was the managing editor of a law journal. So I'm very familiar with like scholarly research and everything. But I just think if you're going to write something, just try to write for the largest audience possible. And for me, I mean, a lot of those lower view articles, like you could write about some very like arcane area of the law, but who's going to read it? So I think with Forbes, I mean, I was writing, I was trying to take somewhat complicated topics and write them in a way that's someone who actually isn't even working in the industry, but interested in it as a the fan can really understand it and really shining a spotlight on what happens behind the scenes. And I think, yeah, I've just making things as simple as possible and hopefully drawing more interest to the theater industry. So for me, yeah, I just writing for a large journal. And I did write a note that I actually chose not to get published. But I just think that it makes sense to write for the largest audience possible. For me, that was Forrest. That makes sense. So, so like when you're doing your writing, do you usually picture like a specific person you're writing for? Do you have like multiple segments? And they're like, this article is good for this, but then next week I will gotta write one for this guy now. Like do you have different like audience portfolios? I mean, I'm always looking for new topic ideas. I have like 3 things floating around for the next few months and usually I'll decide on a specific topic and then identify the people who I think are in the best position to comment on it. So like think about some recent examples. I've done a lot of features recently, but if I'm writing about like production costs on Broadway, then I'll look at I, I'll try to interview producers

[10:06]who have had different shows of different budgets and try to get them to opine on what's happening. But I really just try to find people who are in the best position to comment on different topics. I'm not. I'm more driven about the topic rather than the people. And because there's so many people in the industry. So I can usually find someone to comment on it and it could be actually a what I would describe as a practitioner, as a producer or someone else who works in the industry. Or sometimes I'll also draw and professors and other sort of people who are looking at it more maybe objectively from an academic perspective. This is really interesting. You're approaching this topic not from the content of this show, but you're approaching it more from the business side, like. Yeah, I I don't really I'm not a critic I'd or I'm a member of out of critic circle, but I don't know pine on the merits of like the artistic elements of the show. I strictly am looking at the business side and it's particularly like hasn't performing at the box office. And what basically what I sort of think about when I'm working my column is what would be of interest to Broadway producers and other industry professionals, What should they be thinking about? What should they know? And I mean, they are what I would imagine to be my core audience, so. That makes sense. So, so the Broadway, it's very interesting to watch the shows like what about the business side makes it interesting? Are the financial statements different compared to other firms I. Think, I mean, what's really interesting are the the players involved. I think they have a lot of really interesting people working in the space, a lot of interesting personalities. And I also think relative to other industries, it is still the wild, Wild West. It's sort of wild what happens sometimes in the industry that even within other areas of entertainment. And I used to do a bunch of TV and film work as an attorney. I feel like Hollywood has become

[12:07]very corporate, especially now with more of like the technology companies like Apple and Amazon, even Netflix to an extent, getting involved in the industry. It's become very corporate. And I feel like Broadway sort of evolved from the old like vaudeville industry. It's still a bunch of like independent, like small producers and companies. And I think it's sort of crazy what happens and there's really not a lot of attention to it, but given to it. But I think that it's a really fascinating area of the broader business, private sector. And then also I think there's a lot of money at stake. I mean, it's makes about 30, five, $40 million every week. And I think also I think the power dynamics are really interesting. I've always been interested in stories about power and how it's wielded. And I think that there are some power players on Broadway in different positions. And I think it's just really interesting to see how the industry operates. And you can also go to a show and not really appreciate everything that happens behind the scenes. And I think it's really interesting to see sometimes how the commercial structure and what I'm talking about is the configuration of the industry behind the scenes, how that dictates the art that is created and produced. Yeah. And so I think I think ultimately the players are interesting. I think the power dynamics are really interesting. I think also just the actions are interesting. Everything that happens behind the scenes that is not really covered anywhere. That's so interesting because theater is like so old compared to like TV or movies. Even then it's yeah, the Shakespeare Theater back in the day, but still not that developed of industry. I'd say it's developed, but I think it's, it's just different because you have like, I mean, Variety used to cuts. I mean they they started I think covering like vaudeville and

[14:08]theater, but now it's primarily like Hollywood and TV and the same thing. Obviously Hollywood Reporter, Deadline is very film and TV oriented. Those have more global audiences. Broadway is a flagship for eventually having global productions, but it is still very New York centric. And yeah, it's just a Broadway just doesn't get as much attention internationally as the other sectors, events, retainment industry do. So yeah, it's it's just interesting. And also the business practices are different. I feel like there's a lot more innovation in Hollywood and TV than you see on Broadway. I mean, there's a book from the 1960s that William Goldman wrote named The Season. And the way that the business is described in the book is really not too different than that. The way that the business works now, 60 years later, I think that the numbers have changed, but the way that the business is really that business is conducted is largely the same. Well, I like the, if you like draw, like the play Broadway. Like is it just like there's a theatre and there's like the actors? Like what are the different segments of the map? So I think that the main players are the theatre owners who are arguably the most powerful and probably benefit the most from the industry. And then there's the producers who are also powerful and benefit financially. And then there's all the cast and crew. You have about 14 different labor unions that operate on Broadway. The actors, particularly stars, are important. And then musicians, stage hands, dressers, there's a ton of different people. Front of house workers, box office people, ushers, there's, there's so many people who are employed by each individual production. And then you also in addition that you have the authors of the musicals and the other rights holders. And so there's a lot of different people who are

[16:09]involved in the creation of musical, and it's sort of miraculous sometimes that they ever get made. Yeah, this is like a huge, like so many people all involved for something that just appears and like a year or two later it just disappears. That's so much. I mean, that's one of the things that's from what unique about theatre relative to film and TV, is that it's ephemeral. Once a show shuts on Broadway, there's not really much that like, I mean, that's it. There may be a recording for archival purposes at the New York Public Library, but maybe it'll go on tour and it'll be revived. But otherwise, the music and materials are sitting on a shelf somewhere. And it'll be licensed hopefully by a company like the company that I work for, Music Theater International. But otherwise, like it's not like like you could decide like, oh, I want to go see, let's see, like Hairspray. It's like, well, where is it playing? They may not be playing anywhere so. Yeah. So you so like when it does exist, you guys see it, Otherwise it might just disappear, Yeah. Yeah, it's very different than being If you want to go see All About Eve or some classic film or something, you can go find it somewhere, either a physical copy on DVD or VHS or streaming platforms. Now, it's very different for theater. Once the show is done on Broadway, you're not seeing that same production anywhere. And also it changes night to night. I mean, the script and the music, like everything's frozen. The show is frozen. But like there can be a different cast every night. There could be sort of an incremental changes, like it's a live show, so a performer may be feeling something different that night. Like every performance is different in some small way. Maybe it might not be noticeable to someone who hasn't seen it, but I'm sure the director is there. I was at a dress rehearsal for a show last night. I'm sure the director noticed small things in the performance that were different last night than they will be tonight. That's. So interesting. So, so like like earlier we talked about the power mapping

[18:09]like which, which parts of it is like the most like important for the success of a show like well, how, how is it like it's important for the success I. Mean I would say that the producer and the authors are probably the most important for the success. I think the producer will make certain business decisions that will affect how the show is received and how it operates. I think some shows are too expensive to work and as a result, they don't run long. And then also, I think the authors like making sure, like the art is actually good enough to sustain a longer run, and they may need to make certain changes. I mean, timing is also very critical. But I think that ultimately it's the decisions of the producers and from a financial business standpoint, the commercial decisions and then also the artistic decisions of the authors that will define the success of the show. Because like if the show lasts for like six months, that's like the cash flowing for the six months, the few cash flows for 12 months and get double the revenue. So the idea is to make it longer to. I mean, yeah, I mean, a longer show is is better for a lot of reasons. I mean, it's employing people for a longer time, but also also can lead to more money in terms of like vesting for the producer and everything. So I think that, yeah, running longer is always better for shows. But I think generally from the artistic standpoint, I think if a show is not good artistically, eventually the word will catch up to it. And there's certain ways to sort of mask a bad show. But eventually, like, there may be some initial buzz, but eventually the word of mouth will catch up to it and the show won't survive for a long time. Interesting. So if the art is good, then do do people like come watch multiple times and then that's why? Or is it because it catches like the out of counters that come to New York City? Once a year, you're catching a

[20:10]larger number of them. So it's actually interesting. So with my show and Juliet, the audience has actually flipped initially during the first year or so, most of the audience are New Yorkers or the surrounding suburbs and everything but our states, but it's primarily from like the tri-state, like metropolitan area. And then eventually they see the show and it's flips to mostly tourists. So the demographics change and the marketing strategy should also change as well because you're targeting a different audience. I do think that for certain shows there are repeat audiences, audience members. I think a lot of that is it depends on the subject matter in the show, but also the casting. And I think that the key for long running shows is sort of emulating what the Barry and Fran Weisler did with Chicago, which is trying to bring in new cast members to get people to return to the show and build buzz for that show. They Chicago has been very successful with it. Haiti's Town has also been able to identify performers that appeal to different audiences and bring in new people. And that's something that we've been trying to do with. And Juliet as well. Excuse me, we had Charlie d'emilio and we have Joey Fatone from **NSYNC who's joined the cast previously and is joining us again for the summer. But I think the key is just trying to maintain the relevance of the show and trying to bring in people who have seen the show previously are also Taurus. Because as you when you have a longer running show, and this is what's really difficult, you're also competing against the new shows every year. So there's a brand new crop of shows every fall and spring and I think it's just really difficult to maintain the relevance as the show enters into its second, third and fortune, fortunately for us within Juliet, our fourth year, so.

[22:10]Like each year the Broadway shows change and then do you like update the like how much changes over from year one to year 4? Do you add new music or is it just like casting differences and each cast member would have a different take on? That the show. Does not change at all. The show is the same as it's been as it was done in November 2022 and it opened. But the, I mean, there's some changes here and there. I think some of the costumes have changed a little. We've incorporated some stuff from the tour, but. For. The most part, the show is exactly the same. We're not adding new songs, we're not changing the script. I think what has changed, other than the cast over that time is the marketing strategies. The show has rebranded a bit, but for the most part the show is the same, it's just the marketing that's changed. So interesting. So, so like over 4 years then it's like a big commercial success because like the initial like money down was paid for and then now it's just profit afterwards. Is that typically? Unfortunately, we're in the profit territory. We're in the few shows that broke even. Very few shows are able to do that. But I mean, the duration helps, but you can have shows that run for a long time and do not break even. A lot of that just depends upon how the show's structured economically. I think the key is really trying to keep the losses, the costs as low as possible because you're getting into a territory. Now it's just speaking to a producer a few days ago who had a show, I think it ran over a year, but the costs were just way too high that it, even when it was making money, it just wasn't really paying much to the and wasn't really contributing much to the recruitment because the cost at that show, that show probably cost like $1.3 million a week to run once everything is said and done. And yeah, the costs are really going up. So a show could be making like $1,000,000 a week at the box office, but not actually making any money in terms of profit. So. Since earlier the producer can make business decisions that can make a show profitable.

[24:11]Like what exactly? Is it just like having a smaller cast so you have fewer people to pay? Or is it like how many decisions and levers are there to make the show more affordable? Well. I think one of the. Difficulties with Broadway in general, and this is a key part of my book that I'm working on, but we have what's known as Bommel's cost disease problem, which is basically that we don't see the same efficiencies that you see in other areas of business. Let's say you had a clothing manufacturer. Like there are advancements in technology and stuff that increases efficiency and ultimately profits and productivity. Broadway is still handmade. Costumes are, I mean, yes, they may use machines and stuff, but I mean, there are live performers on stage. There's not really many benefits of AI that can be accrued by the industry. So the only lever that Broadway producers really have to play with our ticket prices because the only revenue stream is ticket sales. It's not, there's really not. I mean, there's merchandise and stuff, but that's just like a drop in the bucket. It's really ticket sales. So a lot of the decisions that the producers make, I mean, they can do some things to like hopefully amplify ticket sales through like marketing and advertising and stuff. But I think the key. Is really just trying to constrain costs and make sure that the show is right size. And some of that is like choosing your theater and making sure show that sure that the like there's a significant gross potential, like you can sell enough tickets each week that it can give you that you can recoup in a timely manner. And then also just making sure that you have sufficient runway that you have a large enough reserve fund to dip into initially as you're building your brand and the word of mouth for the show. I think it's in some ways, I mean it's sort of like being a pilot and like setting on a like going on a flight and making sure that like your aircraft is good to go before you go and

[26:14]then making sure that like when you land, you have a long enough runway so. So. So like the most of the work happens before the show even begins? Oh yeah? What goes then? Yeah, I mean once. I mean hopefully once the show opens and it sort of establishes itself, it sort of runs itself. I mean, we have a general manager and executive producer, but I mean, mostly that's marketing. And occasionally, like when you're casting the shows and stuff, like there's a decisions that needs to be made. But for the most part, a lot of the work and really what the producer does initially is before the show even opens and making sure that the show is built in a sustainable manner to run. Because there's a lot of shows that come to Broadway and they were like never going to work. Like the costs were too high and they totally misjudged the demand. And that's actually one of the difficult things that about theater because if you're doing a film like they use more, they do a lot more research beforehand using focus groups and everything. But for the most part, a lot of Broadway shows do not know until they open what the demand is, which is really scary. And I've spoken with a lot of producers about this for my book. They just don't, they haven't tested the products beforehand. I mean, some shows have out of town tryouts and have good sense, but there have been shows that have had very successful runs out of town. I'm thinking about Swept Away, which was in DC. That's a jukebox musical. And then also there was also technically another jukebox musical, The Who's Tommy, which had a record-breaking run at the Goodman Theatre in Chicago and it was not successful on Broadway. So there's always shows that don't work, but I'd say there's a probably less information known about how shows will actually do on Broadway than probably the film studios do. I mean, they're projecting and tracking box office results well before they happen.

[28:16]And they use. Algorithms and stuff to sort of predict and Broadway largely does not. Broadway tends to be relatively adverse to data and a lot of producers just believe in their taste and trust their instinct. And I think that probably is partially responsible for the lack of access in the industry that we see now. Like once you've done like a couple of these shows, don't you have like, like the top of funnel is this number multiplied by this percentage to drop down to like people who actually view it is like the uncertainty that comes in through the art side because the art side is very hard to judge. Like put a #2. I mean, obviously the more experience you have, the more informed your decision making will be. But The thing is, our society is constantly changing and I think it's just producing a show right now for many reasons, mostly cost related, is very different than producing 10 years ago, 20 years ago. But I think it's just the baseline audience is different. I think audience tastes change. One of the things that I'm looking at right now in my book is mood management. And like for example, after 911, Broadway reopened very quickly, but I think there was a shift in the types of shows that succeeded initially after that period. And more specifically, you had shows like Mamma Mia, which opened right after 911. And I think the New York Times referred to it as a cotton candy type of musical. But it was just what audiences really needed at that time in New York because of after 911, it's very dark time. And that's it was just a very bright musical. And I think actually that was sort of my thinking with and Juliet right after the pandemic. I think people needed something that was fun and joyous. And I mean, also after 911, you had the producers and I, you had these sort of big, funny, light hearted comedies. And I think actually after the pandemic, people sort of wanted that same thing. There's a line that some I have about someone saying like, you

[30:21]don't want to leave a theater worse than you felt going in. And I think about that a lot. And I think that has really shaped a lot of my think about which shows will succeed on Broadway. But also I think that's one of the trends we're seeing in terms of the shows that are successful. I, I don't think personally, people really want to see it really sad or depressing musical right now, But I think that's something that's different than it was 10 years ago. And I think that especially You Fun Home won the Tony Award, and that's about like, kids living in a Funeral Home growing up and also relationship with a father who has a complicated relationship with his family. So I think that, yeah, audience tastes are changing. And I think that that's something that, like, experience is helpful, but you really need to be like, you really need to have your pulse on society. And one of the difficulties, especially with theater, is that it takes so long to develop the musicals and plays. I mean a play you could do in like a couple of years or so, but a musical takes 5 to 10 years. And people change at that time. Yeah, but that also the the difficulty is that you, I mean, what you're seeing on Broadway now, these shows were made 510 years ago. So the key is really is trying to sort of be like Wayne Gretzky and go to where you think the puck will be because you're planning for, like, if you want to do something that's timely now, it's not going to be timely 5 years from now. And there are a lot of instances, like, for example, Haiti's town, which open, I believe, right during Trump's first administration. And there there's a song about, like, building a wall. And a lot of people thought like, oh, that's like, right. That's about like time, like a connection with Trump and his immigration policy. But a nice Mitchell wrote this musical so many years before that, and it was just a coincidence. And I think a lot of the timeliness that you see and being able to sort of tap into

[32:23]that like cultural zeitgeist, I think they're mostly coincidences because you have that timing issue on Broadway. Yeah, that makes sense. It takes so long to make more. It's so, so like like the capitalism structure, like a successful, if you're successful in business, you get more capital so you can invest in even more businesses. Like does that you'll work in in the theater, like the producers who are able to have successes, do they get even more money to reinvest in the future musicals so that? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's definitely certain producers that I can think of, like David Stone of Wicked, for example, who's made a ton of money from that show and is now able to use that money to support other endeavors. And there's plenty of producers who have had very commercial shows, and that allows them and gives them the money to support riskier, more artistic shows. And you're actually seeing that even at like the regional theater level and like community theaters. I mean, they'll put on like very commercial shows and that allows them to also produce the more artsy shows. This is sort of like the venture capital industry where like once you build a good reputation, you become like an anchor for like future shows, like the new up and coming shows. Does it work that way? Yeah, I think, I mean, there's some similarities there. I mean, ultimately, if you have one success, that opens the door to other successes and hopefully gives you the capital to fund other projects. What does the capital base look like? Are there like funds that invest in this space or are they mostly just Angel people who invest out of their own pockets? So I mean, most of the investors are what would be described in the stock market as like retail investors. So it's in most of like mostly individuals, a lot of like your traditional, like white collar base, a lot of like doctors, lawyers, retired professionals, people who made their money in other industries who just sort of look at it as supporting the arts or are enticed by the glamour of being involved in shows. But yeah, mostly, I mean, they're all accredited investors according to the SEC.

[34:25]So they meet certain financial thresholds, but it's mostly individual investors, not really many institutional investors. There's not really many funds. I mean there's some theater funds that are created, but you're not really seeing like like private equity involved in the space. It's way too risky for them. And also I just don't think there is interested in it. I think maybe there are more they are getting more involved on the what the theater owning and like sort of ancillary businesses in the space, but there's not really much institutional interest other than like Disney and other entertainment companies operating in the space. So like for the like the typical like Broadway show, like how many like investors go into each one? And then like what's like typically the thought process that they have is that like they like the art and they want to support the art or do they think that the financials will work out like how much? What are the different types of thinking in those? So I'd say for any show, I mean the shows are getting a lot more expensive now. I'd say there's probably 2 to 400 investors in every show. Could be more, it depends, depends on the producer and like how much administrative work they want to do. But I'd say the average, I'd say every show, I'd say the minimal, the minimum contribution is about sometimes 25, usually more. Now $50,000 and your other question was about? Like the thinking that goes into like thinking that goes into boring. It's like the like they only invest like one a year and they're like, oh, I like this story the most. So I was investing this like how much? Yeah, I mean, there's some people who do it because they wanna have certain stories total on stage. I think Broadway is a good reflection of society in terms of like what value what, what stories matter to the people who are supporting them financially. So a lot of people look at it as a way to. Have certain sort. Of like cultural influence and

[36:26]shape society in that manner. I think a lot of people are interested in just sort of getting a peek at behind the curtain. As an investor, you usually get tickets to like the opening night party and sometimes you get access to like rehearsals and stuff. And so some of them like are doing it to get a little closer to the stage, getting invited to certain programs and like just have a stake in it. I think some of them think it's a fun thing to say that cocktail parties like, oh, I'm. An investor in this show, I know one person who got involved in Chess because on Broadway because they it was his favorite show and he's seen every production of it and loves the cast album. So there's stuff like that. And then I think also maybe after Hamilton and the success that the original investors saw from the show, I think people did think of it as a way to make money. I think a lot of people do not make any money in the industry. I think you really need to know what they're you're doing. I think that there are ways to make money, but it's just very difficult to do and you need, you really need to be sophisticated in the space. And there's benefits to be being more sophisticated overall because then the then the venues are filled up with more audience members and then the shows are last longer so that. Yeah. I mean, ultimately it improves the more sophisticated people are, improves the industry as a whole. I think this shows there. I think shows will be more successful because people will know what they're doing makes sense. So, so like when, when somebody like what comes first? Usually the art comes first and then they would pitch the producers like what's the usual trajectory? It depends. I mean, nowadays I, it's, it's a mix. I mean, you still have some producers who like acquire the rights to different properties and it's more producer driven originating projects being like, oh, I want to make a musical adaptation of the notebook. So they'll go acquire the rights

[38:26]and then they'll assemble the creative team. Other times it's the artists themselves coming up with the initial projects and then pit fighting producers for them. It's a bit of a mix. Some of them are better than others artistically, but I think that yeah, I think because you're seeing so many more adaptations of pre-existing works, it's probably more producer driven now in terms of them wanting to adapt The Outsiders into a musical, so. The good thing about that is that it comes with like a story already you've made and like a lot of people already know. There's certain advantages, you know, the story works, so there's less of a material risk there. I mean, obviously the show, the adaptation might not be good, but there is somewhat of a built in audience. I'd say. Actually, I think there's a distinction that should be made between built in awareness and a built in audience because you can make a musical of well known novel, for example, And people may be like, I've heard of that, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they want to see it. And I think one of the issues that you see is that like they made a musical adaptation of Rocky years ago and I actually enjoyed it. But I think like, that's something that like they were counting like, oh, we'll get like a lot of like male audiences and stuff and like a lot of male audience members. But like, Rocky is a very iconic movie. But like, I don't think the people who like Rocky wanted to see a musical adaptation of it. Awareness doesn't always translate to people in the seat. Yeah. And I think that's one of the things that, like Broadway really doesn't do much marker research before, unlike film and television films particularly. But I think that like a lot of producers do not have any clue whatsoever how much. People really want to see a musical, the musical or play that they're working on. Yeah, That's really interesting. So like, it's like, like, like in between, like, like after you finish one theater successful, one show successful, and you go on to the next one.

[40:27]Like what do people, like, bring with them between them? Like, do they bring, like, good judge, better judgement? Like, I guess there's more capital from the wicked person. He can fund more with the next one. Like, is there also, like, mailing lists for like, audience members or like relationships with critics? Like like what else comes with a producer between different? So it's actually interesting. Shows don't really share their ticketing information, which in terms of like their customer lists. Okay. Which is pretty fascinating, but I mean, some producers may carry that with them and occasionally there's also like bundling and other. It's really just the. Relationships that they build and the judgement and experience that they have that they can then parlay into other opportunities later on. Gotcha. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, if you run one business successfully, you built, you bring that experience and the money you made and the relationships that you've created onto your next business. Yeah, that makes sense. And then like the like the 200, like the investors that go into each one, like do the producers bring like usually like a group of them to the next one as well? Like how does the investors? Yeah, I'd say, I think producers usually tap into their same investor base for the next show. I mean, I can think of many examples where like, yeah, producers go along with them on the ride. So usually some producers have slates where they're raising money for multiple shows at the same time, but usually a producer will return to the same investors for their next projects as well. And then that will close faster and then people, yeah, hopefully increase over time. Yep. Interesting. So, so for further closing question mark, I always ask the guests, what's the kindest thing anyone's ever done for you? It's a good question. I mean, I think I'm always really grateful whenever people give me their time. And I mean, unfortunately, in my career, I've had a lot of people

[42:29]who have helped me get to where I am today. And so I'm really just grateful for people willing to help. And that's why I try to help Cornellians as much as possible now. I try to open up doors for other people. And we've spoken separately about efforts to try to get more people in the industry. And I think it would be great. And I'm always happy to serve as a resource and open up doors for as many people as I can. Thanks so much, Mark. All right. Thank you.